The Imaginists present: This Has Been Going On For Years
The Imaginists discuss concepts, process, and history with colleagues and collaborators.
The Imaginists present: This Has Been Going On For Years
A Kind Of Knowing
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In this episode Imaginists discuss the production of 2024's absurdist workplace comedy/pop-opera A Kind Of Knowing with our special guest and collaborator Yuxdi Farias who was in the cast.
It's been going on for
SPEAKER_02years. Hello and welcome to This Has Been Going On For Years, the Imaginist's podcast. where we discuss process, projects, and history. On this month's episode, we'll be talking about A Kind of Knowing from late spring of 2024, a surreal and farcical pop opera about a mythical company as it contends with the outcome of one of its worst business plans. This piece was unusual in that the audience was divided into four separate corners of the set and was only able to view the performance from the perspective of one office worker at their desk and could merely catch glimpses of the other cubicles and characters as one story began to unfold around them all.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to This Has Been Going On For Years, the Imaginist podcast. Hello. and artistic director Brent Lindsay. Lo-hi. And we're incredibly excited to welcome into studio today collaborator Yuksti Farias, who was in the show that we're going to be discussing tonight. Hello, Yuksti.
SPEAKER_00Hello. Hey.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to see you.
SPEAKER_00It is a pleasure to see all of you.
SPEAKER_01So tonight we're going back, not quite the way Wayback Machine, but the sort of Wayback Machine to a year ago. to A Kind of Knowing, the spring Imagine a Show from 2024. Pretty far
SPEAKER_02back.
SPEAKER_01Pretty far back. We're going to have to mine the depths of remembering that show, seared into my memory. So I was in that show. I played Delore. Yuksty, what was your role in that show?
SPEAKER_00I'm Miss Hastings.
SPEAKER_01Miss Hastings. And Brent, as usual, was the director, along with Amy, and also the writer. and the musical creator, although I think, Stephen, was Cancel Dance, we'll maybe get into this later, Cancel Dance your composition, or you just stepped in? I saw him. He did it in
SPEAKER_02the style of me, what I might do. Ah, I see. I made drumbeat. I said, you're going to love this, and he said, I hate it.
SPEAKER_01And it's followed you for at least a year now. Oh, we just had to do it again. We just had to do it again, yeah. People shout from the streets, Cancel Dance! Cancel Dance! Yeah, he has shackled you with that. probably for the rest of your life. That's good. And I, for one, am grateful for it. So we're going to talk about a kind of knowing, which... I mean, absolutely amazing show. We've got a position of the musicians, the writer. We've got a couple of actors. I think there's interesting things to dive into on all of those fronts. I'm sure you'll agree, Yuksi, that was an absolutely unique show to be a part of from front to back. But I want to go back to the beginning of that and talk about how the concept of it came into being. I remember some early conversations with you, Brent, and with the company where we were talking about A lot of the topics we were all interested in at the time, the absolute shattering of the epistemology of the American people, the way that truth has just been absolutely exploded in so many destructive ways. And I think a lot of those themes kind of made it into the show. But bring me into how that bubbled up. Before we talk about how it formally came, how it evolved into the show, what was on your mind around that time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Historically, Amy and I have always been in conversation about this. We've been fascinated about multiple shows happening at once. And this goes back years and years. Once we had conceived this idea that we would do the main stage show in the studio and then take... Audience, if they misbehaved out of that show and put them in another show in the back half of the building in a small room. So this has just always been kind of haunting us. And I think that, you know, it's interesting that we're talking about this. And it's also interesting, my memory, like I'm trying to sort of go back to these initial conversations and remember them. There have just been so many. many. It's just, I do feel like this is, you know, this is years in the making, really. So Amy and I, this constant haunt finally sort of caught up to us and said, let's do this thing where we split the audience up into multiple groups, and they each get a piece of the show. I don't even know that it was conceived as four cubicles. I'm not quite sure, like, where... But ultimately, it all fell into place where it was going to be four cubicles, 10 audience each cubicle. Some, because of the design, some we could offer a little bit more space. One story. So one story and each audience would get a quarter of the story. And then... You know, that's the beginning. I mean, then I feel like evolution took hold. Sure. We had no... There was no real story concept at all. It was just, let's split the audience up. They get a quarter of the story each, one actor and one story. I think this is where concept and then sort of like being put into play as a story... And this to me was one of the hardest ones to wrangle. It was like steer wrestling. I just remember sitting in front of a computer blank. Like I love the concept. I totally got behind it. I was absolutely excited. And then I just stared at a screen and went, what in the hell am I doing? And, you know, Amy, I mean, Amy's really always been, I think, Stephen, you will agree, historically, since Kytus in Delaware, always been the person with big ideas, really big ideas, and hardly any follow through. I mean, I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this, but. She's not here.
SPEAKER_00She's not here to
SPEAKER_02defend herself, no. I don't agree with his assessment. But she's really, like it's, the ideas are so good that you need for them to happen. And that is also historically true. So I feel like my relationship is just tangled with Amy historically and let's get this thing to happen. And I feel like this is just another beginning. And then she and I will take that story as far as we can together and then we just argue. So then it's just about like, okay, well, you take it then. You know, it's obviously, you're not going to, you know, so then it becomes sort of like, all right, well, who's going to do it first or who's going to do it? Right. So, you know, this piece I think was the first, you know, Miracle Days is interesting and I know we're going to get into that, but it's interesting because Miracle Days was sort of a, it's a relative. It's like, I think a kind of knowing was sort of the one that really took me in this hard way to make sense of a concept, a story, and then just kind of let it roll. And Miracle Days, because of a kind of knowing, Miracle Days was a lot easier for me. Tremendously so. And it was a similar concept, really. Well, I won't get into Miracle Days, but this concept to me was very interesting. So you have an audience, four spots, and now let's make a story happen so that each audience is engaged enough in that story But they're not going to get all of it. And as a writer, I can't even tell you how challenging. I mean, I was just sitting there going, I don't even know where to begin. Just trying to imagine these actors staring at walls, communicating to each other. And I think that there were a couple of, you know, you guys will remember, we brought in a couple of little drafts and like sat you guys around the space. And... I think we started there. I do believe that there was text.
SPEAKER_01There was text and it was early. I mean, this is sort of something that's come in at several of the, many of the shows, right? You come in with a draft that's incomplete. Can I ask you, there were no songs yet. In this one, I think you did not have songs.
SPEAKER_00When we did the first read-through, I think so. From what I remember, it was only songs.
SPEAKER_01It was.
SPEAKER_00So we came in and it was just... A jam session.
SPEAKER_01You were right. It was the songs first.
SPEAKER_00And we hadn't seen a script yet.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow. Okay, so that blows my mind. Okay, so the real juicy... I mean, that explains a lot to me because as I was sitting there staring at the blank screen, I started singing. And I mean, this is like... This is... Like, I broke my writer's block by song. Wow. So, and I didn't intend for this to happen. I had just done the thing with ArtQuest. We had done some songs. And I was coming to this, and I just went, you know what? I'm just going to sing through some of the story and see what happens. You know, the very first song, Office Song, is very meta. I mean, this is all written from a very, like, this is like me sitting behind the computer, and I'm saying... Here we go again. The story's wearing thin. Another trick for the trash bin. This is all me just trying to get at. What in the hell am I writing? So it was like this very meta way of me sort of entering into this piece, which I found to be absolutely magical. I loved it. Here we go again. The story's where it's in. Another trick for the trash bin. Begin and begin. It fit on the song. We roll. it along another job well done for the unlucky ones And then I had, you know, I have this thing. I go running through the graveyard and I look at gravestones and I nab as I'm running. And, you know, it's like one per run, maybe two per run. I'll grab a name off a gravestone, a headstone, and I'll make a song out of it. And so this is like a, it's a deep, dark secret. But Hastings, Delore and Meg's, all those songs came from Headstone. Holy shit. Wow. And they were all working. So they were different names, but they were fitting by the syllables or they sounded close enough. And I and eventually would change the words. So already that was just kind of a launch for me. It was like, OK, I have these things I'm going to. And that's why they're so short, too. These are like me running through just like these little jingles. So I thought, all right, this is just a good way for me to start in. And I think that that launched me far enough to where it was like, oh, I think I know how sort of to enter into this world finally. And then I do remember at some point we came in here and we separated people around the room. Yeah. And we had a brief read of maybe four pages or something. Maybe you guys remember that. I hardly remember.
SPEAKER_01No, I do. Yeah, in the empty space, setting up the four chairs. And it wasn't much text
SPEAKER_00at that point. No, it was just the very opening lines, I think, of Miss Hastings. And now I know that it's, here lies Miss Hastings, reinventer of dreams. It's probably it. You know, so, I don't know, that's so surreal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I am Miss Hastings.
SPEAKER_02I reinvent dreams. A client who has lost their steam like an empty donut with no cream, no not tasty. Till I'm Miss Hastings. Dream on something special for them and I shove it down their throat. I'm Miss Hastings. I think the, so Khan to story through the song finally I don't know I I think it was just because we were dealing with media we were dealing with honest this whole honesty dishonesty propaganda farms I mean this stuff was um because it's just weird going back a year because the election was coming, right? It was coming. It was on top of our minds. Yeah, so it was like all this garbage was in play. And I think that that just fed into, okay, here's our story. And it's funny because the cubicle fed the concept, but I think that more than cubicles, it became sort of this mysterious place, this top secret place business you know what they did wasn't even that clear I think that we kind of made clarity of it as we kept going but it was just these characters all trapped in this space all feeling a little bit differently about what they were feeding the world right and then you had these infiltrators the rats right who infiltrate but I all of this I you know I I would be lying to say I had it figured out at all. I mean, as you guys know, it was all just kind of coming piecemeal, one read-through after one read-through. I don't even know until that last tech week that we figured out who Delore was. I mean, it just felt like it was
SPEAKER_01just like... No, I mean, that was revelatory, right? I mean, this is one of the things I think about imagining shows that, as an actor, is always... on the one hand, absolutely terrifying and completely thrilling is that you don't show up to the first rehearsal and say, oh, this is what we're going to do. You show up and say, well, I have the rumblings of what this is going to be and I'm going to sit in this trust and give everything I can to this process because I know out the other side something really interesting is going to happen. And knowing that that discovery is going to happen bit by bit by bit. I know you see, you and I have talked about the fact that with the kind of knowing that process for me anyway, that drop of final revelation was at the last minute. It was right before we opened that we felt like, oh, fuck, there's a show here, right? I'd love to hear more about that from your perspective.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think what's really interesting is you really had to fall and surrender and trust the process for a kind of knowing. And I remember our first couple of rehearsals being... entirely led by viewpoints we were just walking the grid moving around and we only had like a few opening lines of miss hastings and then we were just exploring the space and that was our first couple of rehearsals and i'm thinking to myself where is this going like i have no idea and then at some point mars who was really excited to be a part of she had seen the nightlight before a kind of knowing. And she had come to me and said she wanted to get involved. And I remember her coming up to me after those rehearsals and being like, what is happening? And I was like, I was like, Mars, I promise you, we will trust. We trust. Just fall into it. Trust the process and know that we will get there. And, you know, for me, dare I say, closing night was the night where I was like, I get it, you know? And yeah, it was magical. Every show we had was incredible, but it was closing night where I really came to terms with the show and I understood it. And, you know, it was such a beautiful experience and so scary. And I think one of the more difficult things that I've ever had to do in my artistic career.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would agree. And I think, you know, hearing Brent, you talk about the deep ordnance of this, right, as a concept banging around between you and Amy, hearing how it sort of took shape. One of the things that I think, and one of the reasons I'm glad we're doing this podcast that's so amazing and possibly unique, at least in my experience, of the Imaginist process is that it is a living, literally living process from the very first moment of inception up until the moment it closes. It is never fixed. It is never done. It's always, and I say this In a way, adoringly, it is always on the verge of collapse, right? It could go south at any point. Part of the magic of it is that it's teetering on that brink. And so we all need to be aware of our balance and what we're giving to it at any moment. You can't rest. And I think that energy that all of us need to bring is part of what... part of what makes that magic because there's that opening right where there's that opening part where those few rehearsals they feel a little bit nebulous and you're going like we only have like yeah we have so few rehearsals what are we doing and then you get that rush at the end where everything comes together but that's the beauty yeah and you have the people like mars you're like you gotta trust
SPEAKER_00it yeah it's gonna be okay and it's like i don't i feel like It's not art if it's not high stakes in every aspect, right? That's right. And so for me, it's just such a beautiful process and I wouldn't want it any other way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And to be honest, it does go south. It's not just on the verge sometimes. Sure, it does. It will go south. Yeah. And I think that that's part of the process. What I love about, you see, what you're saying is, you know, theater is a process. It's in process. That's right. It never... Honestly, I mean, every show that we've done so many years, and it always feels like opening night is your closing night. I mean, that's... I just feel like that's how it should feel. Right. I don't know... You know, I mean, it would be great to have this luxurious long run. I would love to know what that feels like for one of our shows. We'd be playing to an audience of one or something. Right, right.
UNKNOWNBut...
SPEAKER_02But I love this sort of process of figuring it out because I'm with you. I think by the end it was like it was all coming way more clear. Absolutely. Oh, my God. It was like I know who Miss Hastings is. I know who everyone is finally. And then you close. And there's some poetry to that. I mean, I don't know. It's beautiful. It's heartbreaking. I think Miracle Days is similar. But the other thing that I'll say, and this is another commonality between the two shows, and you bring up Mars, and we work in such a way where it's like you invite your core team. And then all of a sudden you have someone like Mars or someone coming in from sort of that second sort of, you know, someone who had just seen a show or something where a student from ArtQuest going, I'd really love to do a show. Really? Okay. So the personnel actually decides what that script is going to be as much as anything. As the personnel grows, then the cast grows, right? So it's like just an interested party changes the constellation of the piece. And that is like nothing else that I know of. I mean, it's like Miracle Days, you know, one more person is interested. Can you fit me? Yeah, it can fit you. Like it just makes an additional role. Right. And we'll figure it out. Yeah. And I do feel like that was something that a kind of knowing. I mean, the rats became a very, very important aspect of this show. And in the beginning, they weren't even there, really. I mean, it's just that they became such a huge vehicle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, they're so integral to where the story went, right? To know... that they kind of emerged during the process and weren't there as some sort of original concept just shows how alive and living and evolving this piece was. And I think, you know, you know, you'd worked with Ireland in the art quest show. So you knew, you knew what she was capable of were some of the songs that you were writing here written with her range and ability in mind prior to. Yeah. And so that's, that's another thing that these shows can do so well as you to one degree or another, have, have the people in mind who are, who are going to be in the show.
SPEAKER_02Totally.
SPEAKER_01And you're able to write, to push them to their limits in a way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of versions of that, like the songs that I had sort of written before. I just trusted that you guys would take and live through them and bring those characters. Ireland is like a totally different, you know, and Ireland's just someone. So we just come out of the art show Dream Letting. Funny enough, Dream Letting had a rat character as a central character. These stories all start to speak to each other as well. I mean, that's another thing I'm fascinated by and I love. Like, I love that my work starts to speak to each other. So it's not by mistake and it doesn't become a trope. It's just one thing about that character in the ArtQuest show really spoke to me enough to go, there's a rat in this too. In fact, there's multiple. And they're the tricksters. You know, they're the heroes. So Dreamletting really fed a lot into this, as well as the music. Ireland, when I heard her sing, you know, we were doing auditions and they were singing around a circle. She was absent the day of. And, you know, it was like, oh, disappointing. But I pretty much had it cast. She came in the next week and I said, you know, do you mind singing this? And it like everything changed. I was like, Oh Jesus, no, this person, who in the hell are you? And I have to write for you like for as long as we're in the same town. Right. And so career day, I, you know, that particular song came pretty early on and it was all about her and thinking, okay, I need to find something that this is a grand slam for her. And it was like, I sat behind that piano. I'm not a piano player. But, you know, there was enough structure to those chords. And I went, yeah, this will work. This is it. This is like it's it's got a hook. It's epic. It's like she's going to launch it. Yeah. Yeah. But every one of these, it's like, you know, cancel dance. It's like, you know, that I just, I know Steven and it's like, God, this would be great. It's a little cheeky because it is. It's in his style and it's like, I know exactly what he can do with it. So they all kind of
SPEAKER_01are approached
SPEAKER_02a little
SPEAKER_01differently. Sure, sure. Well, and this is where Stephen works in a bit of Career Day, I think, into the recording. That song gave me fucking chills. Every night it floored me. I mean, every night. And you got to lock in with Island
SPEAKER_00in that song, right? It's just like so heartbreaking in every way. And I think Career Day is what gave Miss Hastings so much clarity. I understood who Miss Hastings was before. When I got to sit and have that song sung to me and Ireland just delivering it so beautifully, I was just like, wow, I wow. And just rooting so hard every time, even though I knew how the story ends, rooting so hard for Miss Hastings' redemption. And it never happens. And I had to live with that night overnight. Not on camera. Not on camera. But who knows? There is a ripple in the space-time continuum. That's right. There's a universe where Miss
SPEAKER_01Hastings escapes. She escapes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I think, yeah, the music is absolutely what gave my character so much clarity.
SPEAKER_02Ah They made sure of that for me They knew I could sing if it wasn't for nerves I drank a gallon of ginger tea I saw you at career day At the fairground hall I sat behind the rich kids They were tall, I was small, I couldn't see at all But I I didn't care
SPEAKER_00I heard the quiet secrets Tangled in your lies All the rich, cruel, tall kids Deep fried, hypnotized By the whites of their eyes But I didn't care
SPEAKER_01There's that song, of course, Ireland song, which is just fucking incredible. I know that we had some of the songs, as you said, you see, when we came into that first rehearsal. And as usual, you know, it's Brent kind of. I don't know, hesitatingly showing them to us a little bit afraid to show them to us a little bit like, oh, fuck you. There they are. Other people are hearing them and they're amazing as always. I don't know that we had all of them yet. No, but yeah. really always a super fucking interesting process to hear how they get, you know, the script we had was almost nothing at that point, how they get integrated in And yet at the end, how tightly they are wrapped into the show itself, which when we get to Miracle Day's next episode, I think is even more the case. And this time, Brent, I want to dive into the music a little bit more before we go off on another subject. You got to bring in Sterling, right? Your son, which was amazing. He was amazing playing guitar. No, yes. And you did bass, piano? It was both. We switched. You switched?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then Stephen on the magical stick. The big black stick. The big black stick, which was incredible. And So for you in terms of integrating it in, even from a technical perspective, with four different cubes, I want to talk a little bit about its own challenge in terms of directing us. it's to me seems like an absolute fucking magic trick to take these songs you've written a show that's not completely written and yet also in the end organically get these songs these amazing songs into the flow of the piece what what's that process as a dumb generic question but what's that process to work these these songs which sounds like many of them were sort of already formed to some degree before the script
SPEAKER_02yeah about three And then Office Song, I think, happened pretty close to that. And then once the rats found their way into this story and once I sort of knew who these rats were, then you had the delivery song and I think Eligibility came in. Career Day was already kind of worked on. I was fascinated. I really wanted to give... This was another sort of... Ireland gift, but it was also, I mean, I got to say it was probably more selfish for me because I wanted to do this kind of Go-Go's sort of, you know, punk-pop tune, which became Lab Rats. It was just, I think it was my, like, I just wanted to hear it. Nice. And I loved that because, you know, all the rats got to sing back up, and that's when they beat the hell out of the set, and the set came down. Yeah, that was great. So that became, you know, that became sort of integral in its spot. And I think Last to Come was actually the title, another kind of annoying. I think that was the last thing to hit, and I'm not, I... I'm not sure. Ironically, it's the same with Miracle Days. Miracle Days was the last one to hit as well. I have this whole thing kind of mapped out, and all of a sudden it's like, I want to do this really sweet sort of psychedelic song. It's going to land here. And it's going to be the title track. And it's the last one.
SPEAKER_01That makes sense. I mean, the title track needs to come right after the show has been given birth a little bit.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting. In both cases, it becomes sort of this icing on the cake for me. And I love them. I love both of those two so much. And I feel like the show then has to sort of write those. The show has to sort of speak to where those come in. So, you know, It was an amazing process and it really did make Miracle Days a hell of a lot easier because I could trust it. And it's funny that you say, you know, bringing in those sort of tentative working songs because these are... It's just like with ArtQuest. It's like these are vocal, you know, it's like these demos that I'm putting on the phone while I'm running or whatever. And then I put a little guitar part. They're not ready and I bring them in for you guys. And it is, it's always a little bit like, this is ridiculous. I mean, I hardly even know the chords yet. But I mean, it's like, it's, you know, it's the beauty of theater is when you meet people who you can trust that much. Right. I love that. I love that. I don't, I, I, yeah, I mean, I can absolutely come in and fuck up and, you know, and, uh, whether it's a song or like, you know, you see saying like the story or so have people question you and me saying, yeah, you know, I mean, it's, it's great that you can tell Mars that you can trust me because I don't know. I mean, half the time I'm like, I hope, I hope it works. I mean, you know, it's like we've done this, you know, I know it can work, but there's always that moment where you're like, maybe this is the one that's just not going to work. I mean, there's always sort of this reservation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't think, I mean, you made this point earlier, I don't think without that feeling, that real risk, there's not going to be the vibrancy that this kind of theater has. It's cooked into the process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and just like the absolute commitment of everyone in the cast, right? Like we're all in it together and it is just the greatest sport of all time. Yes,
SPEAKER_01agreed, agreed. Well, I want to dive into that a little bit, Yuksti, with you to speak from the actor's perspective now a little bit because I think there's interesting stuff to dive into as an actor in this show in particular because it was so unique. What... How did your experience of the show evolve from those first viewpoint things when we had a little bit of dialogue, but we still weren't in the space to when we got in that space and you're suddenly doing this entire show without being able to actually contact anybody else in the show? What was your experience of that?
SPEAKER_00It was very... It felt like method acting a little bit because I... And it also felt very meta because we knew that this play was about isolation and hyper individualism, which is highly valued by this country and like performing and, and it felt suddenly like I was completely alone. So it took a lot of just being together before we got on set and for me to feel like, okay, everybody out there has my back. And now I have to go sit in the uncomfortableness of Ms. Hastings and every, all of her shadow and all of her sticky, like disgusting parts of her. And I need to go sit in it completely alone while 10 people bear witness to all of her intricacies and you know her very complicated identity and also miss hastings never really knowing what the others were like ever i had no idea the choices that you jordan were making no i had no idea and you didn't know the choices that i was making like at one point i'm flipping off think and only i know this miss hastings and everybody witnessing her cubicle and And so it's just this very interesting space to be in because there is no real. All I know is like I'm making choices entirely based on who Miss Hastings is. I don't give a rat's ass, no pun intended, what anybody else is experiencing. And it's this very it was this very like interesting performance because you typically feed off of the cast's energy. You're on stage together. You're cranking things out. And that's the typical experience you're used to. But it's just me in this cubicle alone, sitting with all that Miss Hastings is. And it was it was very challenging, but also very rewarding.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I wonder if you felt I often sometimes felt that there's all of that is true. And then there was also this other part of me that felt almost more responsible to my other actors than I have in any other show, because you didn't get to give them or have anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. hardest thing to memorize that we've ever had. Lines were really hard. And so that ball got dropped, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a lot. And yeah, like finding that ball again and saying, okay, when is a beat too much of a beat? Yeah. And where are we? And knowing, knowing, you know, the script well enough to say we, and I think, you know, the songs became our anchors. Yes. Which was so beautiful, right? Absolutely. Because we were all suddenly relying on music. Yeah. To say, OK, well, what number are we on and what is coming up? And then how do we get to that number? And then that kind of became our compass. Yeah. But yeah, super fascinating to to be on the edge of my seat and thinking, oh, no, who forgot their line? Because I something needs to happen right now. And I just remember opening night and running lines and being like are we gonna do this like is this going to happen I don't know if this is going to happen and at the end just I was sweating bullets I couldn't believe we got through it and my brother was in the audience and he's like that was amazing and I'm thinking to myself that was amazing Horrible. And he was just like, that was the greatest thing I've ever witnessed. And I was like, what? I'm like, great. That's fantastic. But yeah, just what a whirlwind.
SPEAKER_01You know, you mentioned the audience more than any other show I've ever done in my life. Having them come in. That was the first time I got to see the show because here I am in my cube. Like you said, I don't know what you're doing, but suddenly I'd be there and there'd be eruption of laughter from your cube. And I just have this feeling of, fuck, something really interesting just happened. And then two seconds later, an eruption of laughter or intake of breath. And so I just heard this orchestra and could start to fill in what was happening in the show, but only because in a way I got to experience the show like the audience did, right? I only knew my part. And then I got to hear and be so happy almost in a way that I didn't get to know and that you got to experience the audience's reaction to this thing that you had invented, right? That was absolutely unique.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it was really fascinating because there is a moment in that play where Miss Hastings is sitting, holding a duster in front of her, protecting herself from this rat who has invaded her cubicle and And I kid you not, I am sitting in silence with this rat, with Ireland, who's playing the rat, for like 15 minutes. And that's all that's happening in my cubicle. And it was fascinating because it was just so... The audience was on the edge of their seat listening to what's going on, but witnessing this weird, tense nothingness between Rat and Miss Hastings and... What is happening right now? And I think that was also really challenging because there was a lot of silence.
SPEAKER_01Oh, fucking tell me about it. There was space. This was the most terrifying thing as an actor I've ever had to. I mean, when I first got the script and this was before the end. Right. Before you'd written the end. Yeah. So I didn't know who Delore was at all. And I read it and there's like four lines in like 20 pages. And, you know, that's fine. Whatever you have as an actor, you're like, right. And then then stepping back and thinking, oh, fuck, there's going to be 10 people who are just looking at me. Yeah. Doing nothing. Yeah. For a whole show. What the fuck is happening? Yeah. What the fuck is this? And. I had many times, not many, several times driving home from rehearsal just going like, I don't know. What is this going to be? But also so excited by that of, I have to help tell this story, figure out what that story is, and tell it without language, right? And with Urani, without language. And that was like no net of excitement. I don't know what's going to happen here. And then when you finally wrote that ending and it was, ah, Delore's the devil. And then it was sort of gave me the ability to sort of fill in how he's sitting in that silence. Until then, I didn't know how he was in that space. What does that mean? What is Delore doing? Why is he here? How should I be listening? And then that sort of allowed me to backfill and inhabit that. that emptiness that you were talking about, which was exhilarating and absolutely terrifying.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, two things from both your directions that I feel like I should admit. It's like, again, kind of taking apart my psychosis and sort of doing some kind of autopsy. But I feel like, you know, as a writer... I'm fascinated by the absurd because usually you have – I think I'm most fascinated by it because an audience responds to it, not positively always. In fact, maybe mostly negatively. And I don't want to just intentionally confuse people, but I think my response to it is what – in the hell in this world is making sense right now. And I think that's why I'm drawn to the absurd is I think that it's a way for us to work around these big puzzles that we are having to contend with every day. And so to go further, In a theatrical space. And I think that that's so to use these point, I think that's what made this one so incredibly difficult to learn. Yes, they are one person shows all kind of speaking into one show complete, but it was also the absurdity of it. So there was tons of repetition. There was tons of non sequiturs, like these people who are just not making sense. Like, you know, you would reply, hello, hello. You know, I mean, these crazy lines that just made no sense. And I relished in that, writing it. And then I think once I kind of put it on your plate, it was like, oh yeah, not only are you not seeing each other, not only are these like these cooked in silences, but then you have just this absurd language and these people who are communicating with one another by way of really not communicating. I mean, they, it was just a lot of bullshit, but somehow they understood. I think the other part of my psychosis is this whole thing of like, when I go into a space and I start to teach, especially my favorite exercises, sending actors up on stage, splitting scenes, the group in half actors up on stage audience watching and just um doing nothing and just being up on that stage and the audience and then we reverse it and you're watching actors do nothing and that's the one rule don't act and to me it's some of the most riveting theater I've ever watch because no one's putting bullshit on and I love that because if I go out to Juilliard Park or I'm just sitting in my car watching someone walk in a crosswalk it's theater to me and so you know when we're talking about these silences like the duster holding off the rat or Delore just sitting and Meg's underneath these poetic pictures to me say all they need to say and I could sit there for 15-20 half hour watching these things I don't want to torture an audience, but I think that if the actor is alive, the space will be alive. And if the audience is able to listen, like it's interesting, you know, Fleaves or like, you know, our audience who comes for that kind of specific kind of theater because they want to listen. They want to watch. They want to be absorbed in the mystery. And so... These two things just are speaking so loud, kind of hearing them back and remembering, oh yeah, I was absolutely fascinated by these two things going into it. So I love, again, I just appreciate working with a group of people who are game and then who can absolutely exercise the thing to its full capacity. And, you know, we can get into the The critical critique later, but I'm taken back to this moment thinking it was a very ambitious piece. I think that if Amy were in the room, and I hate to speak for her, but she would say impossible to direct. I mean, she was running around four cubicles just trying to figure out, like, timing and what everyone was doing and making sure that everything was alive. You know, and also, I think, to Amy's credit, and then Sveta Moroz, who... was one of the most amazing parts of this ensemble in design and costume. Amy and Sveta are both credited for these worlds. Yes. Very distinct installations where it wasn't just theater. It was an art piece. Yes. And I think, you know, we can get into that further. But I think that each one of those art installations then with an actor in it became like a, you know, it was like performance art. It was like a one person show. But then it was like this, this. This, you know, everything kind of speaking to one another and the audiences that came multiple times and some came all four times to sit in all four corners. I think that we're the winners. Yeah. We're the absolute winners because they were the ones that not only loved the show most, but they were the ones who left and said, oh my God, I get it. And, you know, I get it. And they would tell me, and it was like, you know, some of it was new to me. But like, yeah, you got it. Like, you got it. You fed the story, right? That's exactly what we're doing. But sometimes upon sometimes a kind of knowing comes to you
SPEAKER_00If you buzz it in how you'll begin to prepare for what to do
SPEAKER_02Lemonade in coffee cups, benzene in a bottle Don't jump out as clear as fish may do Trust another lover as you might trust in you
SPEAKER_00Sometimes upon sometimes a kind of knowing comes to you
SPEAKER_02And those art
SPEAKER_01installations, I think to your
SPEAKER_00point, it was amazing to see Yes. They wanted to inhabit them. Yeah. And just be in each of the cubicles and just observe and look at the details. And I mean, the amount of detail in every little world was incredible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It inspired, I think, all of us as actors to really inhabit those places and let what that surrounding was really inform us. any of those silences there was such a rich space to be in that you can't help but have it just inform it without having to pile too much on top of it
SPEAKER_02yeah absolutely and i i also am just i'm just here remembering and think and admiring you know the what what theater is and when When you have these powerhouse people come together like a Sveta coming in with a vision that's going to challenge the very direction of a piece and challenge the build. I mean, because, you know, I was building it out and she was coming with designs that were so intricate. And I was like, oh, my God, Sveta, do you know how much work you're adding to my plate? And yet you want to do it. You know, it was like every challenge became like, yeah, I'm going to do it. I'm going to stay a little longer and I'm going to get this done. We're going to make, you know, Hastings, the mirror light up and we're going to do, you know, everything's, you know, blue. I mean, it was just unbelievable. And, you know, I also have to just call Alex into this because, you know, Alex Bravo would bring in his, you know, his his. paint equipment and help me, you know, with each of these cubicles and just, you know, it's the power of the people. I mean, it's really, I mean, this art form is incredible because it's like, if you have a powerful group of people, really incredible things are going to happen. I remember Oubleday's space. I think Amy was trying to take something, you know, Sveta's sort of challenge and Amy was having a, hell of a time because she didn't want it to just be phony jungle. And so Amy was doing all this kind of, um, design, you know, she was taking all the turf and like kind of doing design work with it and like, you know, and then, then we kind of jungled the corner with vines and things just to hide the mics and all that. But yeah, it was a fascinating experience. fascinating process from beginning to end, and a very fast one.
SPEAKER_01Incredible. I don't think that if you were to take any one aspect of the show, be it the design, be it the music, be it being a performer, being the writer, being a director, each of those was a fucking odyssey in its own right from beginning to end. And the fact that all of those things came together to create a show that, on closing, I also agree felt like... wow look what was made and the great sadness of this will never be seen again
SPEAKER_02yeah
SPEAKER_01right which is such a sublime feeling that you don't often get as an actor right someone's like well we did this show someone else is going to do it some other it's like no that's it we made this there it is it's i don't i mean in a way the audience got to see that in a way we never did they got to see it more completely especially those that came to all four yeah but I don't know that people can really appreciate and hopefully they can from, and one of the reasons I really tried to push to do this podcast to understand how amazing as a piece of art, the process of this is not just the product, but how it goes from those vaporous visions that are floating around to that final night's performance. It's incredible. The tapestry that's, and as you've pointed out, the intention and artistry and the, attention and commitment of every single person who throws their hat in the ring for this
SPEAKER_02yeah
SPEAKER_01it's pretty extraordinary
SPEAKER_02yeah and and then you so you have this design aspect and it's beautiful you know on and on one hand it's like okay it'd be easy enough just to like let's just go in challenges and all and just build each of these cubicles out with this amazing vision but then we had one more layer that we added on which was the whole space was going to bust apart,
SPEAKER_01destroy it every night.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, so then we have this whole other thing where it's like, where are the seams, you know, where, where are the big, big pieces of the space that are going to come down. And, um, you know, the, the, the whole objective was to let the audience at this point, see through the space so that you could see other cubicles or at least portions of cubicles. And in doing so, um, Seeing the band also in the center. So you were exposing everything at that point. And that was the Lab Rat song. And the rats went around and punched all these hinged doors and things. And I do remember this. That was up to the moment of either our first DresTech or the final. Because I remember Ireland... tripping and falling through one of those collapsed doors that's right so that that just you know that says to me how fast and furious this thing is and how quickly you build and and the actors are you know i mean you guys know it's like it's um it's just it's just like no other it's theater I mean it's like it's living up to the moment of opening I think things are happening like that day you know we're finishing things
SPEAKER_01and through the run I mean that was that show in particular like there were we were just fixing things and finding our way finding our comfort and comfort but whatever stability of our legs underneath us throughout that entire run even though Someone like Fleas is going to come on the first night and say, that's the greatest thing I
SPEAKER_00ever saw, which is great to hear. And he saw it a second time, right? Yeah. He wanted to experience a different cubicle. So he saw it a second time and got to start piecing the story together. And he kept telling me, you know, after the first night, he's like, I want to know the lore on Delore. You know, these. So I think, yeah, I mean, even though it felt absolutely chaotic to us, I think the audience enjoyed every single one of our shows. Yeah.
UNKNOWNYeah.
SPEAKER_00And we got through it, which was – it really felt like we were fighting to get to the end every night.
SPEAKER_02Again, I'm just remembering as – so it's just like this incredible chain of events where it's like once we knew, like when those walls came down, what we could see, what was sort of exposed, then I think we understood or I understood this audience half – the Delore-Megs-Hastings half is going to see something together, finally, as one. So it's like then you're splitting the audience into two. So that became sort of exposed enough to have like, okay, this whole audience is going to end with this half of the story. And the other half is going to end with the Oubleday-Fink and then Delore going over to their half. That's going to end together. So then you could sort of play with this. Four groups are now becoming two and they're going to get sort of these different endings simultaneous. So like even if you were an audience that came twice and I knew a few people who had the opportunity to say, you know, see, say that Hastings side first and then. go to the Delore site and just have this revelation of, oh my God, I never knew who Delore was. And vice versa. So that was another thing. It was just, it was not planned. It was not, there was just no script for that until we understood, oh, this is going to happen. Like once these walls come down, we have two shows ending. So I, yeah, it's fun actually just to read. And The cat who came in.
SPEAKER_00That was great. And that was because of the details. It's all in the details. The cat felt comfortable enough to come in and use Delore's cubicle as a litter box.
SPEAKER_01Perfect for the rat.
SPEAKER_00There's
SPEAKER_02just so much shredded paper in there. Yeah, it was disguised. I never cleaned up a cat mess before a show. But actually, the cat was so lovely. It was like, it'd just come in and hang out and walk around. I actually just was missing that. cat the other day. Yeah, me too. It was a cool cat. If you're enjoying the conversation and you want to help support the work of the Imaginists, consider becoming a monthly Bedrock donor. For more information, go to our website, www.theimaginists.org.
SPEAKER_00This has been going on
SPEAKER_01for years. So, I don't want to talk about this too long, but I feel like in describing this process, I mean, this makes me fall in love with the show all over again, super deeply. I remember one of the things that we were talking about early on, just sort of in some bullshit conversations. That was right about when... AI was starting to get a little bit better and that was starting to make video that was realistic. Now it's kind of a matter of course, and getting scarier in some respects and stupider and others, but this piece of theater and the images in general, I think is, uh, is the kind of company that is creating and using theater as an art that will never... that embodies what it is that theater can do in a way that can never be reproduced in any other medium, not film, not anything else. And the experiential nature of it, the fact that it was growing and living right up to that last minute, there's enough room in these shows for discoveries to be made right up to the finish line. That is so beautiful. That's why... That's why companies like The Imagist need to exist, right? That's the edge of art, not just for the sake of being bleeding edge or being absurdist or farcical, but because there needs to be room for that magic to come in in something living, which none of these other, very few other mediums will do and much of the theater doesn't do, right? It's just, it's not possible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think that that's why we in, well, I would say 1988. I mean, when, you know, I just feel like it goes back that far where it was like traditional theater started speaking less to us. It just didn't make much, it wasn't immediate enough. It was great. I mean, it's fine to, I have no problem doing, you know, a Sam Shepard play or a Tennessee Williams or, you know, but it just started not to, feel right. It wasn't authentic. It wasn't, it wasn't speaking to the audience. I think that we wanted anymore. I think that audience was one that we would be shocked by, like the audience that didn't go see theater. And I think that that's still happening. And I, you know, here you have a piece where it's like, yeah, it's not going to be for everyone and maybe a theater going audience, least of all.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02But I do think that there are, young people and people who are adventurous enough to come into this space. If you can get them in and go, holy shit, I've never seen anything like that. And that, that to me is what theater should be doing. Absolutely. If you can remember, not even like it, if you can remember that piece of theater that just bugged you or totally sent you flying or, That, to me, is where theater lives. It's like you just want it to live.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like is a very small word, right? That just pins something to the wall. It's not what we're looking for. I
SPEAKER_02feel like, you know, to get back to the critical response of this piece, because, you know, when the Chronicle came, I just, I think that I've heard it enough to where it's like overambitious, uneven, I felt left out as an audience. These are all compliments to me. So, I mean, you know, I see like a little guy, you know, barely clapping in the chair and it's like, no, these are, this is why I make theater. Well, that ironically, that show you were being left out. I mean, by design. By design. Exactly. Totally. Absolutely. Exactly. And I mean, you know, back to sort of theater, you know, life as theater, which it is. You're left out of a lot. There's a lot that happens in the shadows. There's a lot that happens in the dark. You know, there's partial light. There's secrets. There's whispers. I don't know why we feel like it should avoid the theater. I mean, that's where we live. That's right. Yeah, the rules. I just feel like breaking the rules is really important. Agreed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think that it's important to not understand everything. Not to get super spiritual, but I think... magical things happen in the unknown yes and if you could sit in the unknown and feel yeah it's uncomfortable i think that's when suddenly you are offered with an opportunity that you may have never encountered ever before had you never stepped into that space of uncomfortability and not knowing and not having the answers and just sitting in it um and so for me I love it when someone's like, I don't get it. I don't know what's going on. And I'm like, sit in that. Just sit in not knowing. It's okay.
SPEAKER_01Because there's another kind of knowing. There's always another kind of knowing. But that's right on. You see, I mean, I encourage you to get as spiritual as you want with that because I think that's where you touch reality, right? Like we... we separate ourselves from reality with language and all of these things that just cut us off from actually experiencing anything. And so to get thrust into that space, it's good not to like it. It's good to be confused. That's real. That's authentic and uncomfortable and where we need to be living more. So again, why this art is critical.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's when I was in, fortunate enough to go to Hungary and, Russia, Sweden, Serbia, to see theater that wasn't in my language, wasn't translated half the time. And it was the most moving theater. Well, A, because they do it very, very well. Culturally, it's highly regarded, very, very different than here. But B, you didn't need to understand it to absolutely be moved by it. And that was just... I want to say it was revelatory, but of course, you know, for me, it made absolute sense. It was like, no, this theater is just a series of images and words. You know, it's interesting because ArtQuest just did The Tempest and I was sitting near some people who at intermission, sure enough. I don't get this. You know, it's like, Christ. It's just a loose loop. Like, we're just like, theater is just like, yeah, you know, it's Shakespeare. You know, it's like, yeah. I mean, what can you say? Ah, that guy. I just think if this is something where, you know, we still have people walking into the space going, I can't quite remember what I saw here, but I remember being here and I remember absolutely you know, it being something that was so bizarre or, you know, whatever. And it's happened numerous times where it's like, good, that's great. Yeah. You know, I remember seeing something years ago and it was so weird. Great. You know, that's, that's, that's super cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. You force a little crack into someone. Yeah. You
SPEAKER_02can only see it here. You can't see it anywhere else. That's right.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_02But I will just say that another kind of knowing, I think, was a huge leap forward for me and the Imaginists as a group of people, an ensemble, and for me, I think, as just a writer. I think it was just a huge moment of... And I think it had everything to do with just being stuck and finding the breakthroughs in surprising ways and being okay and following nothing, really, but it was the next domino and that led to another, led to another, and then a group of people who could absolutely bring life to that and allow... more dominoes to appear. You know, that was an amazing thing. And I don't know, you know, it's like night light over wintering. It's such a different beast. I mean, this was something just from blank, from nothing except this concept, which was a bit overwhelming and a little ridiculous, but absolutely fascinating. And Yeah, to the end.
SPEAKER_01To the end. Yix, do you have any final thoughts you want to give us on your experience in this show?
SPEAKER_00I used to consider myself someone who didn't enjoy musical theater. I think I mentioned this to you when we first met, Brent. And I think, like you, I also, a kind of knowing was a breakthrough moment for me in that I was like, I love musicals. And I wouldn't even call it kind of knowing a musical. It is. But it is, right? It's a musical. And I'm like, wow, I love musicals. And I just didn't know that they needed to be written and produced by Brent Lindsay. But now I know what musicals to look for. It's a special kind of musical. No, but my first exposure to falling in love, like slowly starting to open up to music, it was dreamlanding for me. And then when I had the opportunity to be a part of A Kind of Knowing and just falling in love with the music and then witnessing my little brother, who's very musical, come and leave and say, I love musicals. I didn't know I loved them. And I'm like, oh no, you love this musical. I
SPEAKER_02still hate musicals.
SPEAKER_00And so I think for me... It was a magical experience of many firsts, of a lot. And just like those audience members who left feeling uncomfortable and feeling like they had stepped into the unknown, I feel like I did too. I had the opportunity, and along with you, Jordan, and everybody else in the cast, to completely step into the unknown and surrender to it. And it was a beautiful, magical experience. And... I will forever love Ms. Hastings.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think we all will. Yeah, for sure. I mean, this is the thing is you fell in love with these characters and they were not great people. I mean, it's a little bit like Miracle Days. It's like, I think that's another very strange thing in my psychosis is I want to love them.
SPEAKER_01You do. They're on the page, right? Like all these characters are deeply cared for, even if they're absolutely broken and horrible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I don't know that we would be able to connect with the scripts and do what we're asked to do were that not there in it, right? If you were so detached from them and you hated them, I don't think there's any way we could find our way in.
SPEAKER_02And, you know, the other point I'll just make is I, like you guys, I never saw the show.
SPEAKER_01You absolutely never saw the show. You were stuck in the middle the whole time. I
SPEAKER_02mean, I remember there was the last sort of... Rehearsal that Amy sort of, we tag teamed and kind of ran to different corners. It was kind of like a track meet around the four cubicles, you know, and we were just sort of trading places. But I knew that I had to get back to the band and back to the music. And so I never knew what Tessa, what Oobliday turned into. Fink, I never saw. I maybe saw a little bit more of Hastings, maybe Dolores. I, I'm not sure why it just worked out that way in rehearsal, but, um, but in the end, I have no idea. Oh, I was just like you guys. I could hear the gasps and the laughs and the silences and, and that was theater in itself. I mean, sitting in the middle of it, it was beautiful. Like When the audience creates theater, you know, it's like, oh, my God. I imagine, yeah, the audience had to really be thinking about, I mean, the amount of concentration it had to take to watch it, I think, is pretty great. Yeah. Because your brain has to turn on to take in three to four different things. I mean, you can't just sit there. So that's pretty, I think that's wonderful. I also, of course, did not get to enjoy it, but I love that we made people smarter for a minute. Yeah. One last little shout out is the rats. Because, you know, this other thing about the threshold of the space, and, you know, we talked about this in Nightlight as well, but it was something that kind of, we could bring to a kind of knowing that I loved. It was this, the, the, that show began when that audience crushed the threshold into that front door. And those rats sort of sat you randomly. They had a little gambling game. That's right. Where it's like, they, they got to seat you by the roll of the dice and they had a little system. And, um, I love this sort of theater. As soon as you enter a space, um, Being bombarded by the new. And it's like, oh, what the hell? Where did I just come in? I mean, the story is like right. It's beginning. And it's about to feed the story that you're about to see. So it's almost like, yeah, this strange sort of breaking the story open. You're going to meet these characters first. And then you're not going to see them for a minute. And they're going to reenter. That was another fascinating thing. And that was something that came very late in the game. Yeah. But I don't think it would have been the same show without that. I love that. Wow. Incredible.
SPEAKER_01Well. This has been a fucking fantastic discussion. I really miss this show. And I was always thinking about these shows. It makes me both incredibly happy and super sad that it'll never be seen by another. Never, ever be seen. Never be seen again. Hopefully we'll have heard a few of
SPEAKER_02the songs. Unless you have $20 million. $20 million. That's probably not even enough.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. No, I'll take
SPEAKER_02it. I know how you build shows. You'll use all of that money. You need
SPEAKER_01more money. Yeah, we'll make a show called A Kind of Knowing. Lincoln Center. I've got an idea. It was incredible to have you here until the next show, of course, which we know is going to be on the horizon.
SPEAKER_02Hey, let's call it On the
SPEAKER_01Horizon. On the Horizon. So thank you everybody for tuning in again. And this one came a little late, as you can imagine, because we had a show to do. So it was a little bit hard to get behind the mic. Oh,
SPEAKER_02yeah. Sorry if everyone
SPEAKER_01was waiting. But next episode is going to be about Miracle Days, which I'm incredibly happy to figure out how to do. to talk about some way. Yeah. So, until
SPEAKER_00next time, see you soon.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes upon sometimes a kind of knowing comes to you.
SPEAKER_01This has been going on for years.
